10 October 1913, Bergen
With all my heart I respond to the very kind greeting just expressed by your representative, and I feel sure that those friends who have come to this town to take part in Anthroposophical life in the company of our Bergen friends will unite with me in this. We have had a beautiful journey across the great mountains, which give us so pleasant and friendly a welcome, and I think our friends will certainly enjoy their stay in this old Hanseatic town all the time we are able to be here. That marvellous handiwork of man, the railway along which we traveled, brought to our notice more closely than in other parts of Europe the impression of the energy of human creative force in actual combination with Nature herself. When one sees the rocks that had to be broken up in order that the hand of man could construct such work, side by side with that other, constructed and piled up by Nature herself, the impressions that pour in upon one do truly make a visit to such a country one of the most beautiful of all possible experiences. In this ancient town our friends will spend the time of our sojourn amidst beautiful impressions which will be preserved in their memories as the background of their visit. These will be days for storing up memories, more especially because we can satisfy ourselves by physical vision that even here, in this part of the world, we can meet with Anthroposophical hearts which beat in unison with our own in the search for the spiritual treasures of humanity. Our visit to this town will certainly link us more closely and more affectionately with those who have received us here in so loving a way.
We are gathered here for the first time, and what I want to say to you will have to be of an aphoristic character. I should like to speak a little concerning that which belongs to the domain of the spiritual world, and this is more easily and better said by word of mouth than in writing, not only because, on account of the prejudices existing in the world today, it is difficult to confide to the written word what I am glad to entrust to the hearts of Anthroposophists, but it is also difficult to do so because spiritual truths really can be better given out in words than in writing or in print. This applies more particularly to the more intimate spiritual truths. Although it has been necessary for me to allow intimate spiritual truths to be written down and printed, I always feel it bitterly. For the very reason that the spiritual beings spoken of in such writings cannot read them, it is a question of much difficulty, for books cannot be read in the spiritual worlds. For a short time after our death they can still be read in our memory, but the beings of the higher Hierarchies cannot read our books. When I am asked whether they do not wish to acquire this art of reading, I am obliged to say that according to my experience they show no desire to do so at present, for they do not consider that the reading of what is produced on earth is needful or useful to them. The reading of the spiritual beings first begins when men on earth read what is written in books, and the content becomes their thoughts, the living thoughts of men. The spirits can then read that content in the thought of man. But what is written or printed is, as it were, darkness to the beings of the spiritual world; therefore one feels that in confiding something to writing or print one is communicating something behind the back of the spiritual beings, which yet is for these spiritual beings themselves. This is a genuine feeling, my dear friends, and one which, if I may venture to say so, even a cultured citizen of the present age cannot quite share, though every true occultist must have this feeling of reluctance to write or to put into print.
When with clairvoyant vision we penetrate the spiritual worlds, it seems to be of special importance that at the present time and in the near future knowledge of the spiritual world should be made more and more widely known, because the change in man's soul-life, which is so necessary now and will become more and more necessary, will greatly depend upon the spreading of Spiritual Science. You see, if we look back with spiritual vision even but a' few centuries to olden times, we come upon something which must greatly surprise anyone ignorant of these things. We find that the intercourse between the living and the dead is becoming increasingly difficult, and that a comparatively short time ago there was a much more active intercourse between them.
When the Christian of the Middle Ages, or indeed the Christian of but a few centuries ago, turned his thoughts when at prayer to the dead who were near and dear to him, his feelings and sentiments were then more able than are such thoughts today to press up to the souls of the dead. It was much easier then for the souls of the dead to feel permeated with the warm breath of the love of those who thought of them and looked up to them in their prayers than it is today, if we only follow the external culture of the age. At the present time the dead are much more shut off from the living than they were a short time ago. It is, in a sense, much more difficult for them to perceive what lives in the souls of those they left behind. This lies in the evolution of mankind, but in this evolution of ours must also lie the recovery of this connection, this living intercourse between the living and the dead. In former times it was still natural to the human soul to be in touch with the dead, although no longer with full consciousness, for men had ceased to be clairvoyant for a very long time. In still earlier ages they could look up at their dead with clairvoyant vision and follow their subsequent life, and just as it was then natural to have living intercourse with the dead, so the soul today, if it acquires thoughts and ideas about the higher spiritual worlds, will acquire the power of establishing intercourse, living intercourse, with the dead. And among the practical tasks of Anthroposophy will be that of gradually building the bridge between the living and the dead by means of Spiritual Science.
That we may clearly understand one another, I should like to draw your attention first of all to a few points connected with this intercourse between the living and the dead. I shall begin with a very simple phenomenon forming a link to further spiritual investigation. Those souls, whose custom it is to ponder over things a little, will have observed the following phenomenon in themselves — and I believe many have done so. Let us take the case of a man who hated someone or perhaps was only conscious that he was antipathetic to him. Now when the person who has been hated or disliked dies, it is often the case that the man who hated him in life cannot continue to hate him to the same extent; he cannot keep up his dislike for him. If the hatred extends beyond the grave he feels a sort of shame that it should be so. This feeling, felt by many, can be traced clairvoyantly, and during this investigation one may ask oneself the following question: “Why feel shame for the hatred or dislike which was felt for the dead, considering no single soul knew of its having been harboured?” When the clairvoyant investigator follows the departed through the gates of death into the spiritual worlds and then looks back at the man who stayed behind, he finds that, in general, the former has a very clear perception of the hatred in the living; in fact, if I may be allowed to use the expression, he sees the hatred as it were. The clairvoyant is able to state very definitely that the dead perceives the hatred, and we can also trace what such hatred means to the dead. It creates an obstacle to his good intentions in his spiritual environment, comparable to the obstacles we may encounter on earth which stand in the way of the attainment of our aims. It is a fact that in the spiritual world the dead encounter the hatred or dislike felt for them as an obstacle in the way of their carrying out their best intentions. So we can understand why, in a soul who searches into himself a little, hatred, even if quite justifiable, will die out because of the shame it entails after the death of the hated one. If a man is not clairvoyant he certainly does not know the reason, but a natural feeling in his soul tells him that he is being observed. He feels: “The dead man perceives my hatred. This dislike of mine is an obstacle in the way of his good intentions.” Many deep feelings exist in the human soul which are made clear when we ascend to the spiritual worlds and face the spiritual facts which are the cause of these feelings. Just as on earth we do not wish to be observed externally, physically, when doing certain things — and in fact refrain from doing them if we know ourselves to be observed — so we do not go on hating a man after his death if we feel ourselves observed by him. But the love, or even sympathy, which we feel for the dead man really makes his journey easier; it removes obstacles from his path. What I am now saying, namely, that hatred creates obstacles and love clears them away, does not imply any interference with Karma, any more than do many things that happen on earth which we must not consider as directly belonging to Karma. For instance, if we knock our foot against a stone we must not always put that down to Karma — at any rate, not to moral Karma. In the same way, it is not in contradiction to Karma that the dead feel relief because of the love that flows up from the earth, or that they encounter obstacles blocking the way of their good intentions.
Another thing which will appeal even more strongly with respect to the intercourse between the living and the dead is that the dead in a sense also require nourishment, though, of course, not the same nourishment as do human beings on the earth, but spiritual psychic nourishment. Just as we on earth must have our harvest-fields in which the fruits ripen upon which we support our physical life (I may use the comparison, for it corresponds to the facts), so too must the dead have their harvest-fields, from which they can reap the fruits they need in the time between death and a new birth. When clairvoyant vision follows the dead, it can see that the sleeping human souls are the harvest-fields of the dead. It is, indeed, not only surprising, but really extremely upsetting to a man who for the first time is able to see into the spiritual world, to perceive how the human souls living in the intervening period between death and a new birth hurry to the sleeping souls, seeking for the thoughts and ideas to be found in them. From these they obtain the food supply which they require. When we go to sleep at night the thoughts and ideas which have passed through our minds in our waking hours come to life — they become living beings, so to speak. Then the souls of the dead draw near and take part in these ideas, and in so doing they feel themselves nourished. Oh! it is an extremely affecting experience when we turn our clairvoyant vision to the dead who nightly visit their sleeping friends. (This applies particularly to blood-relations.) They wish to bathe in and, as it were, nourish themselves on the thoughts and ideas that the living took with them into their sleep, but fail to find anything nourishing. For there is a very great difference between one idea and another as regards our sleeping state. If we are busy all day long with the materialistic ideas of life, giving our minds only to what goes on in the physical world and to what can be done there, and do not give a single thought to the spiritual worlds before going to sleep — indeed, in some respects just the opposite — we can offer no nourishment for the dead. I know some parts of Europe where the young people are so educated that they go to sleep after having tried to drink as much beer as they can hold! That means that the thoughts and ideas which they carry over cannot live in the spiritual world, and when the dead approach them they find a barren field; this is just as hard for them as when our own crops fail and famine ensues. Particularly in our present time great famines can be observed in the spiritual worlds, for materialistic feelings are very prevalent now, and there are a great number of persons who consider it childish to think about the spiritual world. They thus withhold from those souls who ought to obtain nourishment from them after death their necessary soul-food.
In order that this fact may be rightly understood it is necessary to mention that after our death we can feed on the thoughts and ideas of those souls with whom we were in some way connected in our lifetime. We cannot draw nourishment from those with whom we had no connection. If we propagate spiritual science today, so that we may once again have living spiritual content in our souls, then, my dear friends, we are not only working for the living that they may have satisfaction, but we try to fill our hearts and souls with thoughts about the spiritual world, knowing that the dead who were related to us on earth must be nourished by them. We feel today that we are not only working for the so-called living, but that by spreading Spiritual Science we are also serving the spiritual world. When we are addressing the living, talking to them about what this daily life should be, then, by reason of the satisfaction which these souls experience, we are creating ideas for their night-life which can be fruitful nourishment for those whose Karma has led them to die before ourselves. That is why the need is felt, not only of making Anthroposophy known by the ordinary outer methods, but there is also an inner longing to cultivate it in groups, for it is of great importance that persons who study Anthroposophy should associate together. As I have already said, the dead can only draw nourishment from those with whom they were connected in life, and they try to bring souls together so as to make the harvest-fields for the dead ever more extensive. Many a man who can find no harvest-fields after death because his whole family are materialists, can find some in the souls of the Anthroposophists with whom he has associated. That is a deeper reason why we should work together and are anxious that any member who dies should, before his death, become acquainted with persons, Anthroposophists, who while still on earth occupy themselves with spiritual things, for he can afterwards draw nourishment from them when they are asleep.
In the early days of men's evolution, when men's souls were still filled with a certain religious spiritual life, the religious communities, and especially the blood-relations, sought intercourse with the dead. Now, however, blood-relationship has lost its power and must be replaced more and more by the cultivation of a spiritual life such as that of our Movement. Thus we see that Anthroposophy can promise to create a new bond between the living and the dead, and that we can thereby be of use to the dead. And when we today with clairvoyant vision find persons living between death and a new birth who have the unfortunate experience of discovering that all those they knew on earth, even their own relations, have only materialistic thoughts, we recognise the necessity of permeating the culture of our day with spiritual thoughts. For instance, we find in the spiritual world a man we knew on earth who recently died leaving behind him relations whom we also know, a wife and children, all of whom in the external sense are quite good people. With clairvoyant vision we see this man unable to find his wife, who was the very sun of his existence when he came home after a hard day's work; yet because she had no spiritual thoughts in her heart and mind he cannot see into her soul; and, if he is in a position to do so, he inquires: “Where is my wife? What has become of her?” He can only look back at the time when he was with her on earth; but now, when he wants her most of all, he cannot find her. This may happen. There are many people today who more or less believe that the dead, as far as we are concerned, have passed into a sort of nothingness, and they can only think of them with entirely materialistic thoughts — no fruitful thoughts whatever. When we look down from the after death life upon someone still on earth who was fond of us but does not believe in the survival of the soul after death, at that moment, when our whole attention is centred on trying to get into touch with the loved one, our vision becomes as it were extinguished, for we cannot find the living friend nor come into touch with him; yet we know it could easily be done if there were any spiritual thoughts in his mind. That is a frequent and very painful experience of the dead. Clairvoyant vision can perceive many a soul who, after death, finds many obstacles put in the way of his intentions through the thoughts of hatred by which he is followed; yet he can find no comfort in the loving thoughts of those he left behind, being unable to contact them because of their materialism. These laws of the spiritual world, which can be thus observed with clairvoyant vision, are really and truly valid, as can be seen in cases which we have been able to observe. It is instructive to observe how the thoughts of hatred, or at any rate of antipathy, work on, even if they were not formed in full consciousness. Schoolteachers can be observed who were generally considered severe and were unable to attract the love of their young pupils, whose thoughts of hatred and dislike are innocent, so to speak. When such a teacher dies, one sees how here too the thoughts that follow him are, as it were, obstacles to him in the spiritual world. The child or young person does not reflect, when the teacher dies, that he ought not to go on hating him, but he naturally goes on doing so, remembering how he was tormented by him. By means of these glimpses we can learn much as to the relation between the living and the dead, and what I have been trying to put before you today is for the purpose of suggesting something which may be developed and be a good result of our Anthroposophical strivings. I mean what is known as “Reading to the Dead.” It has been proved in our Movement that we render immense service to those souls who have died before us by reading to them about spiritual things. The way to do this is to direct your thoughts to them and, to make this easier, picture them standing or sitting in front of you. You can read in this way to several at a time. You need not read out loud, but follow the written thoughts attentively, always keeping the dead in mind, thinking: “He is standing before me, I am reading to him.” It is not even necessary to read from a book, but you must not think abstract thoughts, but think each thought out clearly; that is the way to read to the dead. This can be carried so far, although it is more difficult to do, that you can even read to someone with whom you were only distantly acquainted if you have had thoughts in common with him, such as a belief in the same conception of the cosmos, or if you had the same thoughts about some domain of life which brought you into personal relationship with him. It may be of great help to read to him after death. This has been done in all ages.
I have been asked, “What is the best time for this,” but it is quite independent of time. The thing that matters is that you should think the thoughts through to their end and not think superficially. The subject must be gone through word by word, as if spoken inwardly If this is done, the dead read it with us. Such reading is not only helpful to Anthroposophists — far from it! A short time ago one of our friends was disturbed every night, as was his wife also. They felt a disquietude; and, as the man's father had recently died, he came to the conclusion that the soul of his father was present, wanting something of him. Our friend then came to consult me; and it appeared that his father, who in his lifetime would never hear a word of Spiritual Science, now felt a very strong need to learn something of it. The son and his wife then read to his father the Course on St. John's Gospel which I once gave in Cassel, and this soul was very greatly helped, and felt himself lifted above many disharmonies which he had been feeling after his death.
This case is all the more remarkable because the dead man had been a preacher, constantly addressing the public from his own religious standpoint; yet after his death he could only be satisfied by having an anthroposophical elucidation of St. John's Gospel read out to him. Thus we see that it is by no means necessary that the dead we wish to help should have been Anthroposophists in life, although, of course, we help the latter more particularly by reading to them.
When we observe such a fact as this, my dear friends, we gradually acquire quite different thoughts about the soul of man. The human soul is, indeed, much more complicated than is generally supposed. What we are conscious of is really but a small part of our soul-life. Much takes place in the subconscious depths of the soul of which man knows but little. Often it is the very opposite of what he believes and thinks in his normal consciousness. It may often occur that a member of a family is attracted to Anthroposophy while his brother or his wife or someone with whom he is closely connected dislikes it more and more and rages against it because he has joined it. There is often an increasing dislike of Anthroposophy in such a family, so that life becomes really difficult because of the attitude of these good friends and dear relations. Now, if such souls are investigated clairvoyantly, it is often found to be the case that in their subconscious depths a profound longing for Anthroposophy is developing. Sometimes the relation who raises the strongest objection in reality longs subconsciously more intensely for Anthroposophy than does the member who attends all its meetings. But death lifts the veil from the subconsciousness and levels all these things out. It frequently occurs that a person may be dulled as regards what lies in his subconsciousness, where there may be a very strong yearning for Spiritual Science. By raging against it he deadens the longing of which he was not aware, but after death it will come out all the more strongly. Therefore we should not omit to read to those souls who in their lifetime fought against Anthroposophy, for indeed it often occurs that we can help those most of all.
The question frequently asked in this connection is: “How can we know that the dead really hear us?” Well, of course it is difficult to know this unless we have clairvoyant vision, but if we regularly think about the dead and work for them, we may suddenly come to feel: “They are listening.” This feeling is only lacking if we are inattentive and do not notice the peculiar feeling of warmth which is often present when we are thus reading. We really can acquire this feeling, but even if we fail to do so, my dear friends, there is a law which must often be applied to our relation to the spiritual world. It is the following: If we read to the dead and they hear us, we most certainly help them, but even if they do not hear us we are fulfilling our duty, and perhaps eventually we may succeed in making them hear. In any case, we are certainly doing good, for we are filling ourselves with thoughts and ideas which will most certainly serve as nourishment for the dead in the first-mentioned way. So that nothing is lost, and the practice of this custom has proved that the longing on the part of the dead for what is thus read to them is certainly widespread, and that we can render immense service to those to whom we read the spiritual wisdom which has now been brought to light.
Thus we may hope that the partition separating the dead from the living may become thinner as Spiritual Science is more widely known in the world. Truly it will be a beautiful result of the work of Anthroposophy, paradoxical though it may seem, if men eventually learn by practical experience, and not merely in theory, that we only have a difference of experience when we have passed through so-called death and are in the company of the dead. We can even help them to share in what we ourselves take part in physical life. We are forming an entirely wrong conception of the life between death and rebirth if we ask: “What is the good of reading to the dead? Can they not see for themselves all that we can read to them, and know it all much better than we do?” This question can only be asked by one who is not in a position to judge of what can be experienced in the spiritual world! As you know, a man may be in the physical world without acquiring knowledge of it; and if he is not in a position of being able to judge of this or that, he cannot acquire knowledge of the physical world. The animals live in the physical world with us, yet they have not so much knowledge concerning it as we have. The fact that the dead live in the spiritual world does not necessarily give them knowledge of the world, although they can see it. The knowledge which can be acquired through Spiritual Science can only be acquired on earth; it cannot be acquired in the spiritual world. If, therefore, the beings in the spiritual world are to possess it too, they can only gain it from the beings still on the earth. That is an important secret of the spiritual worlds. We may live in them and be able to perceive them, but the necessary knowledge concerning these worlds can only be acquired on earth. Here I must mention something about the spiritual worlds which I shall amplify in my lecture tomorrow — something of which most people have no correct conception. While man between death and rebirth is living in the spiritual world he has more or less the same longing as we here below have for the spiritual world, and he expects from us on earth that we should show him things connected with the earth, and cause them to shine forth so that they can be seen by him and thus give him the knowledge that can only be acquired on the earth. Not without reason has the earth been founded on the spiritual cosmic existence; it has been called to life so that what can only be brought about on earth can come into existence. Knowledge of the spiritual worlds which transcends the vision and perception of those worlds themselves can only be acquired on earth. I have already said that the spiritual beings of the spiritual worlds are not able to read our books, and I must now add that what lives in us now as Anthroposophy is to the spiritual beings, as well as to our own souls after death, what books are to human physical beings on our earth — something whereby they acquire knowledge of the world. But these books which we ourselves are to the dead are living books.
Realise this significant saying, my dear friends, that we must furnish literature for the dead! Our own books are in certain respects more patient; they do not cause their letters to vanish into the paper whilst we are reading them. We human beings often take the opportunity of reading away from the dead by filling our minds with material thoughts which are really invisible in the spiritual world. As the question is often put to me whether the dead themselves know all that we are able to give them, I must say that they cannot do so; for Anthroposophy can only be established on earth, and from thence must be carried up into the spiritual worlds.
When we ourselves observe these worlds and have a little personal experience of them, we find ourselves confronted with quite different conditions from those prevalent here on earth. That is why it is so extremely difficult to express these in human words and thoughts. Often when one tries to speak in a concrete way about the conditions in the spiritual worlds it all sounds paradoxical.
Here I may perhaps tell you incidentally something of a being, a deceased human soul with whom, because it knew much, I have been able to make investigations in the spiritual world concerning the great painter Leonardo da Vinci, and especially as regards his celebrated picture of the Last Supper in Milan. When one investigates a spiritual fact in cooperation with such a soul as this, it can point to many a fact that one might not discern simply by clairvoyant vision into the Akashic Records. The human soul in the spiritual world can indicate these, but can only do so to an investigator who has understanding of the things it wishes to point out. Suppose, together with such a soul, one investigates the way in which Leonardo painted the world-renowned “Last Supper!” What remains of that picture today is hardly more than a few specks of colour, but in the Akashic Records one can watch Leonardo at work and can perceive, although it is none too easy, what the picture was then like. If one is able thus to investigate, in company with a soul not in incarnation but who has a connection with Leonardo da Vinci and studies his paintings, one observes that this soul points out this or that. For instance, it may make one realise the actual faces of Christ and Judas on the canvas. Yet one becomes aware that the soul could not do this unless, at the time of showing, there was the necessary understanding on the part of the living investigator. This is a sine qua non. The discarnate soul itself only learns to understand what till now it could only perceive, during the time the living soul is being willingly taught. Thus a soul with whom one has had such an experience — which can only be experienced in the above-mentioned way — says to one, symbolically speaking of course: “You have brought me here to this picture. Because you yourself felt the need of investigating the picture, I on my part felt the impulse to look at it with you!” After that follow various experiences, but the time comes when the soul either vanishes or says: “Now I must go.” In the case to which I am referring the dead soul said: “Up to now the soul of Leonardo da Vinci was quite willing to have the picture seen, but it does not now wish the investigation carried farther.”
In telling you this I am giving you a very important detail of the life of the Spirit. As we in physical life always know what we see and always know that we are looking at this or that — as we see these roses here on the table — so in the spiritual life we always know when a spiritual being is looking at us. When we pass through the spiritual worlds we always feel that this or that being is looking at us. In the physical world we are conscious that we go through it observing the things around us, but in the spiritual world we feel that this or that being is looking at us. We are constantly aware of being seen, of being appraised, and this leads us to form decisions to do something or other, knowing that we are being approved of or the reverse; and if there is anything we ought or ought not to do, we either do it or not accordingly. Just as we pluck a flower because it takes our fancy after we have seen it, so in the spiritual world we do a thing because it pleases some being, or refrain from doing it because we cannot stand the glance that is turned on such an action. This is a state of things to which we must grow accustomed. Over there we have the feeling of being seen, just as here we feel that we see. In a sense what is passive here is active there, and what is active here is passive there. From this you can see, my dear friends, that we must acquire absolutely different concepts if we are to understand aright the descriptions referring to the spiritual world. You will see how difficult it is to coin in ordinary human language the descriptions of the spiritual world which one would so gladly give. You will realize that for many things the necessary understanding must first have been created.
There is just one thing more to which I should like to draw your attention. It might be asked why anthroposophical literature as a whole describes freely enough what takes place in the spiritual world immediately after death, what takes place in Kamaloca, and afterwards in Spirit Land, but tells very little of the separate clairvoyant glimpses? It may very likely be supposed that it is far easier to observe s particular soul after death than to trace the experiences generally described; but this is not the case. I shall make use of an example to prove this.
With the rightly developed clairvoyance it is easier to perceive the greater events, such as the passage of the human soul through death into Kamaloca and in its further ascent, than it is to see the particular experiences of a given soul: just as in the physical world it is easier to recognise what is regularly subject to the influences of the greater heavenly movements than what is in a sense spasmodically influenced by them. You can all reckon on the fact that the sun will rise tomorrow morning and set at night, but it is not easy to foresee what the weather may be, So it is with clairvoyance. The accounts we generally give in our descriptions of the spiritual worlds may be compared with the knowledge we have of the general course of the heavenly bodies. We can always reckon that these things will be fulfilled as described. But the separate events in life between death and rebirth are like the weather conditions on earth, which are, of course, subject to law, but are more difficult to recognise; for even on the earth itself one can hardly tell in one place what the weather will be in another. It is not easy here in Bergen to know w hat the weather in Berlin may be, although we know the relative positions of the sun and moon there. To follow up an individual life after death is more difficult, and demands a more special cultivation of the gift of clairvoyance than to follow the general course of the human soul. If the training be carried out aright, knowledge of the general conditions is acquired first, and the rest, which appears to be easier, comes much later — after much schooling. A man may have been able for a considerable time to see quite clearly as regards Kamaloca and Devachan and yet find it extremely difficult to read the time by the watch concealed in your pocket. The things of the physical world are most difficult of all to the clairvoyant training. It is exactly the reverse as regards acquiring knowledge of the higher worlds. A man makes mistakes here because there still exists a natural clairvoyance which is uncertain and subject to many errors. This may persist for a long time without giving the clairvoyant vision the outlook on the general conditions described by Anthroposophy, which to the trained clairvoyant comes more easily. These are the things of which I wished to speak to you today in respect of the spiritual world. Tomorrow we shall continue these observations and enter somewhat more deeply into them.